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In this second and final part of Mike's interview he talks about a number of topics that are important for the church to consider as it navigates its way forward in today's culture. Enjoy.
Smulo: Mike, you quoted Keith Miller who said, “Our modern church is filled with many people who look pure, sound pure, and are inwardly sick of themselves, their weaknesses, their frustration and the lack of reality around them in the church. Our non-Christian friends feel either “that a bunch of nice untroubled people would never understand my problems”; or the more perceptive pagans who know us socially or professionally feel that we Christians are either grossly protected and ignorant about the human situation or are out-and-out hypocrites who will not confess the sins and weaknesses (they know intuitively) to be universal.”
This quote cuts deep, but the alternative is painful and difficult and there aren’t shortcuts. How do you suggest we take our pretend masks off and be ourselves around each other?
Frost: Mmmm, well you’ve kinda answered this yourself, and you’re right – it’s painful, difficult and time-consuming. So was the Incarnation. Jesus came to us to reconcile us to God. It was painful, difficult and time consuming for him, so why should we imagine it being any different for us? It will involve eating with others, sharing life, spending a lot of time together, and undertaking joint projects that bring out both the best and the worst in us. Living with people (both Christian and not-yet-Christian) like this will naturally, sooner or later, bring to the surface issues, problems and weaknesses that require us to be vulnerable and honest. Our problem is that nearly all our interactions with others take place when we have some measure of control over the situation. Frequency of contact and a shared commitment to a challenge will shed light on the real issues quickly enough.
Smulo: In Exiles you told something of your journey in the 1980s and 1990s to develop a genuine community, and how you now feel that its missing something. Why you don’t believe that community is an end in itself?
Frost: It’s like making happiness an end in itself. You never get there. Things like community and happiness are actually by-products of aiming at something else. I suggest that if a group of people aim at a cause beyond themselves, the experience of community will emerge naturally. You’ll have to pull together. You’ll have to share openly. You’ll have to carry each other a times. A sporting team often experiences a deep sense of intimacy, but they’re not aiming at intimacy. They’re aiming at winning the competition. I think that for Christian community to develop we need to serve someone or something other than our own needs or desires. In short, if we aim at mission, community will fall out the back end.
Smulo: I really connected with your description of getting back from a short-term mission trip overseas and feeling a special, intimate, profound sense of connection with fellow travelers. To this day I’ve never personally replicated the sense of meaning I had while I was involved with YWAM as a new believer. I struggle that the parachurch not only seems to be more effective in mission, but also in community than the local church. What are your thoughts on this?
Frost: Exactly as you say. At YWAM, you had a goal or a cause beyond yourselves and you discovered community almost inadvertently. Have you noticed the irony that the parachurch agencies are aiming at mission and experiencing community, while the churches are aiming at community and finding neither?
Smulo: The world is overwhelmed with a diverse range of problems. How can Christian communities make a practical difference?
Frost: In both small and large ways. We can be environmentally sensitive, by not using Styrofoam cups at church, by driving hybrid cars or taking the bus more often. We can stop buying food with so much plastic packaging. We can be mindful of waste. We can support charities in the developing world. We should read more widely about the news events of the world – don’t just limit yourself to the Daily Show. Be aware of global issues. Write to your local politicians, supporting the marginalized. Sponsor a child. Take a short term mission trip overseas. Volunteer as an emergency relief worker in hurricane-effected areas. Pray for the persecuted church. I could go on. And I’m aware that thousands of Christians across the US are doing these things already, but we need to be more involved in the needs of our planet. Remember that the incredible impact of exiles like Joseph, Esther and Daniel is that they contributed to the wellbeing of their host empire. Joseph helped Egypt to be a better, wealthier nation. Christians today should see the whole planet as their host empire and throw themselves into working for the poor, the earth, the lost.
Smulo: When I was a student, and later worked with you at the Centre for Evangelism and Global Mission at Morling College, I couldn’t help but noticing every now and then that you didn’t seem overly enthusiastic with corporate singing. You’ve also written about your distaste for “Jesus is my boyfriend” worship songs. Can Christian music be redeemed through contextual forms of music and meaningful lyrics?
Frost: I really hope so! But I’m not a musician, so I write about this stuff as a disempowered critic. I have no ability to change it myself because I can’t write music or play an instrument. But I’m getting tired of singing love songs to Jesus-my-boyfriend. And frankly I feel silly when I have to sing songs so sentimental and cloying they could have been written for a 1990s boy band. As much as I’m loath to admit it these days, I’m not ‘in love with Jesus’ (for some people this might sound like blasphemy). But let’s be honest, I love my three daughters more deeply than I could ever imagine loving anyone, but I have never fallen in love with them. My love for them transcends the exciting, heady, temporary feelings of romantic love. Likewise with Jesus. I love him and am completely in his debt. But I’m not head over heals in romantic love with him. So it’s not singing that I don’t like. It’s the kind of singing that I’m expected to engage in. As much as this romanticising of worship bothers me, even more disturbing is the recent trend of singing worship songs in which I have to pledge my unfaltering devotion and service to him. You know, the ‘Jesus, I will never let you go...’ type song. In these songs I have to declare that I will follow him to the ends of the earth and that I will praise him all my days. In one sense, there’s nothing wrong with making such promises to God. The Psalmist does so on occasion. But frankly, I’m so much more comfortable with singing about the fact that Jesus has promised that he will never let me go. My promises seem hollow and unreliable. It’s God’s promises to me in Christ that are solid, reliable and unfaltering.
I sorely wish Christian musicians would write songs that help to sustain us as exiles, as foreigners in a forbidding country. We need songs that strengthen our resolve and inspire us to act. Not silly loves songs to Jesus.
Smulo: Those who are reading this interview likely are doing so because they are a blogger, or at least regularly read blogs. In Exiles, you said of blogging that “It’s either the most astonishing universal display of narcissism or the most liberating opportunity for the ordinary and the everyday to be celebrated.” Which is it?
Frost: It’s both. Frankly, some blogging is terribly self-indulgent and can be used as a cover for saying things about people that they would never say to someone’s face. Bloggers have to be careful that they’re not just mice who roar over the blogosphere. But I’m aware that a lot of bloggers aren’t like that. Their blogs are the genuine and authentic journals of real people being authentic, generous and passionate. We now have the opportunity to access the opinion, ideas, beliefs and questions of people who would never previously had the chance to get their work published in conventional paper-based forms.
Smulo: I greatly miss having the opportunity to work with you at Morling College, and appreciate your continued input into my life. Thank you for taking time to participate in this interview.
Frost: Likewise, I miss the closer working relationship we had in the past. Stay true, bro.